Horse Training Success

The risk of using negative reinforcement is that the horse may come to connect what is now just mild annoyance of the bit with more annoyance. Escalation of annoyance can also result in more resistance, not less.

The very same technique in terms of instant response can be used with positive reinforcement.

I've cured many horses of this very problem by the very instant they open their mouth taking the bit away and putting in a nice juicy treat.

Timing is everything.

Keep putting the bit in and as it's taken out replace it instantly with the treat.

Probably within a week you can begin reducing the number of times you actually give the treat, and simply connect the acceptance to words of praise or a soft rubbing of the neck. That, of course should have been done along with the treat but right after it.

And yes, I've been a proponent of pressure release (negative reinforcement) but gave it up when I understood how positive reinforcement works.

The horses became far less prone to problems, and far more happy and pleased with their work. In fact, much of their work became play for them, and of course, for me.

By the way, a four year old often is found to have wolf teeth that cause bit problems.

I agree strongly with the suggestion to have the horse's mouth checked.

My 4 yr. old was the same way, I bought the halter that you can clip a bit to, it clips on one side then you bring it around the mouth and in, then clip it to the other side....what a breeze. now he'll take any bit...I also left the bit in all day. I found now though with him still in training a hackamore gets more controll with the lightest amount of pressure, although I still go over the bit routine to keep him used to it. Hope this helps.

Hi:
Sounds like you're getting good advise & you won't know what works best for your horse until you give it a try. One thing caught my attention while reading your post. You said that you just hold the bit in place until your horse finally accepts it - several minutes later. I'm not clear if you also insert your thumb in the space between your horses teeth, while holding the bit in place, to encourage him to open his mouth. This is how I was taught many years ago & I also have a piece of sugar in my hand which goes in the horses mouth with the bit. I also give a treat, usually a piece of carrot, when I take the bit out. Best of luck.

I'm guessing that this horse has more disrespect issues than just bitting. Irregardless, I never support giving treats to promote the behavior I am looking for. Did you ever see a lead mare or stud give a horse a treat to get them out of their way?

Get your headstall up under the jaw, your right arm between the ears, slip your thumb into his mouth at the corner of his lips and apply pressure to his gum (bars)lifting the bit to his front lips. When he opens, even slightly, retreat. Continue till he accepts the bit then repeat. I have never seen this method fail in over 40 years of working with horses.

I suggest you get this horse back on a round pen schedule and do some longing for respect.

Buffalo Wy.

What a good repository we have now on bit refusal and overcoming it.

I'm afraid though that I don't accept the concept of "respect," building. If one plays the "lead mare," game one may well discover the horse in question will challenge for position, mistaking you for another horse.

No one should be in that position.

Human to horse relationships are, to the horse, a new kind of relationship, not a horse social hierarchy function.

We have a chance, with bits or any other of our appliances, to create problems or solutions.

As for lead animals giving treats, yes, I have seen them do so. If a horse backs off when the lead mare says "leave that clump of grass alone," the lead mare often will then concede part of it to the obedient lower rank horse.

Yes, I'm an old time mustang observer.

Bachelor stallions have similar reward systems. As do all herd members. Back scratching is a favorite. But even play nipping, play threats, an other play behaviors are rewarding for the participants.

Build on these, if one understands the horse, and the concept mentioned by Rebecca on training in the hackamore and getting responses with considerable lightness.

I can choose to create resistance in a horse that simply does not understand, or I can choose to pressure them into submission, or I can use methods that capture the horse's sense of play and friendliness.

Compliance may not be the only thing I want. But if I must have it I'd rather begin with fun and see if we can stay there throughout.

My daughter's new pony hates the bit. He will actually take it with very little fuss, but heaves a huge sigh and groan after it's in place, then chews and mouths it a lot.
So we got a bitless bridle from barefoot saddlery, and it goes on simply with no straps to buckle, and the poll pressure seems to work with the lightest touch.
He's an excellent, seasoned pony, so I don't know if it would work as easily with a young horse, but he just seems grateful that we've understood his discomfort and removed the issue.

Have you considered a hackamore? I've heard of a lot of horses who ride fine with a hackamore. And I've heard of/seen lots of Olympic riders using mechanical hackamores, too, especially showjumpers. It's a good investment, I think :)

I appreciate all the great information you are sending me. I adopted 2 yearling mustangs from BLM. Some the information has been really helpful. I just had to give you my opinion about the whip and trying to put the bit in the horses mouth. There are alternate ways such as using a hackamore instead. There are too many abusive humans out there that would be more than glad to hear they could use whip on the horse and abuse them with it. Just worried.

I'm sorry,
ANNOY the horse to get it to trust you to put a hunk of metal in it's mouth? All you'll do is make a bigger mess.

There are a great many who use pressure release methods (negative reinforcement) successfully. That is they get the results they wished.

I certainly did for 20 years.

However I gave up on that, left the horseworld, and have returned nearly 40 years later (two years ago), with the intention of handling horses in a manner that does not produce either resistance or resignation.

Both are frequent, or we would not be reading sources such as this to find "solutions."

If I can entice the horse to accept me, to play, to be curious about what I am doing in his life, then possibly I can see a new way of being with the horse.

If I am single mindedly goal oriented I can make a top notch reining horse. If I am more interested in being with the horse for other qualities besides his ability to do a long perfect 11's sliding stop he and I may have something more in the relationship.

And from it.

I am almost exclusive now, in my training (which I prefer to call 'handling' these days) using +R, operant conditioning with pleasant and rewarding experiences for the horse.

So how would I get him to take a bit? Well, I would not. I no longer accept biting a horse as necessary. And for other appliances, such as the hackamore I start with the assumption I wish the horse to stop, and turn, and back.

I know ways to do that without any appliances at all. Or with such soft application that I am simply asking if he is willing to do these things.

It's very hard retraining myself, but the rewards are worth the effort.

And if I do feel I want to use the hackamore I will ask the horse, by offering him a reward and making the placing of it on him a pleasant experience among other pleasant experiences.

Funny, I find this works rather well with humans too. Humans I want friendship with, or at least pleasant experiences with.